Guardian

With The Guardian quartet of Yemi Ogunsola, Kabir Alabi Garba, Debo Oladimeji and Ajibola Amzat, Nobel Laureate, Prof Wole Soyinka shares his “deeper life”—- the greatest lesson Life has taught him, psychic experiences, life after life... Then a secret on Bola Ige’s killers and June 12

WHAT is the greatest lesson life has taught you?

It depends on what day you ask me this question.. If you ask me this question tomorrow, I may give you a different answer.

We don’t mind?

Today, one of the things I have come to recognize is that life is a constant struggle. The only difference is whether it’s on one front, on two fronts or on multiple fronts. Life is a constant struggle. I have said it again and again that I am retiring from public life. I am still working at it. Even retiring from public life is a struggle. It is almost a process; from  undergraduate of retirement, you become a graduate of retirement, then you go into postgraduate retirement and Professor Emeritus of retirement…

At which stage are you now?

I am on graduate level (Laughter)...Because everything is a struggle. That is why I am not yet completely qualified. But that is the answer I can give to you today. Otherwise, I wont be talking to you. I should not be talking to you at all. I should have rejected this interview…

What do you think is responsible for life? How did it happen?

Even Stephen Hawking, a scientist, who is considered to be one of the most brilliant who has been trying to solve that mystery admits he has not quite solved it. And sometimes, he even veered toward the notion of creationism…I have heard some of his recent statements. But I haven’t got the full article yet ; I read the summary somewhere. That is part of the lessons of life: that you just need to understand certain seemingly unresolvable conundrums. How did life start? What’s the purpose of life? The Big Bang Theory? Do we go for evolution? Was Darwin correct? Or is it neo-Darwinism? Or has life always been? In other words, that there has never been nothing . There’s the possibility that we are all knocking our head over nothing. That at no time in the existence of the universe has there been absolutely nothing. That everything that exists … always was. That we are just wasting our time trying to solve the mystery of the beginning of life. That all these other theories, in fact, cannot be upheld scientifically…

Do you believe there is life after death?

Individually, no. But there is life after death, because life continues on earth.

Are you saying it is not possible for you to suddenly be conscious of yourself again after you have been buried on earth?

I have read a lot of literature on life after life experience, I don’t believe one word of it.

Why don’t you believe one word of it?

Why did you believe it?

Today, we are the journalists, asking the questions.

It does not matter. Why did you believe it?

But do you believe in the soul?

I believe … there is the flesh, there is the blood, bone etc. There is also the mind. The mind is lodged in the brain. And the mind dies when the brain dies. The soul, I don’t know what that is. I believe in the mind. Because I use it and others use it. And I correspond with you because I am exercising my mind. The moment I die, sorry o, you won’t see me to interview anymore, in any form. That is what I can say. But there will be others to interview, to carry on the same mission of the mind and –— collaborate in the survival of humanity.

I want to assure you that after your earthly life, you will find yourself conscious. If you find yourself conscious and that you are still alive, I hope you will let me know…

I am promising you. One thing that I have never been afraid to do is to admit that I am wrong. It will be very nice, if I find that I am wrong. Unfortunately, I cannot deceive myself that I am going to be wrong. But, I promise you, if I find myself conscious after death, you will be the first person I will contact. Because you’ve thrown me a challenge.

What will you say is your most spectacular psychic experience?

There is a certain dimension, the spiritual dimension to all human beings… Things have happened to me in life which I have not been able to explain. Which do not admit a rational explanation. The gift of clairvoyance for instance; some people have it more than others. But some gifts can be explained through rational observation. There are facts which the mind, for instance, takes in. The mind takes in a number of data that do not appear on the conscious level but they exist in the subconscious. And they are working always, the mind is almost like a computer. And there are certain calculations, certain analyses being made by the mind even without your knowing. After some years or even at a young age some people have those faculties better developed than others…I believe. But at the same time, it does not invalidate the fact that when you die, your mind dies with you.

I am asking your personal experience. May be you are about to travel by plane and you have a feeling that that plane has some problem and you stay off and …

I could even do better than that; but I won’t tell you the experience.  Even before something happens I have said “Oh! This is going to happen…” Sometimes it can be a very  frightening experience. I can tell you for instance I was about to travel. I was already on the queue to the counter at the airport  many years ago . As I got there I said “No. I mustn’t travel”. I couldn’t explain it. I just felt I should not travel. I was teaching in Ife at that time. And I turned around to someone who came with me. I said “Tell the driver, o ya ...we are going back”.

Are you referring to that incident about your mum?

Yes, that’s correct.

And I went back to Ife and I didn’t go back to the office. I just sat in the house waiting for whatever…..Then the news came that my mother had died. There have been incidents like that in my life.

Do you still go hunting Sir?

Yes I do. If you people hadn’t come and detain me here, I probably would have joined others on a hunting expedition.

Do you have an idea of the time of the day you were born? I am suspecting …

The time of day, no. I only know that it was on Friday, the 13th. All those people who say Friday the 13 is unlucky or something, Iam telling them it is part of this egregious superstition.

Do you think the current trouble in the PDP may lead to the party’s collapse? And what is your view on the alternative party recently formed by the coalition group (APC)?

First, the fortunes or misfortunes of PDP do not concern me at all.  I am quite not interested. Any problem of the party, however, should be made internal.  When one is compelled to speak out is when the problem within the party strikes at the very stability of the polity outside the political party. If the PDP collapses tomorrow, it’s no business mine.

You seem to have a positive relationship with APC and some of the members, but there are individuals in the party that you had earlier denounced as ‘anti-democratic’, for example, Buhari. How do you reconcile your position now?

There will be plenty of time to respond to that. Just say that there are certain individuals in APC, (and I am not referring to Buhari at all), within the APC who could bring the fall of the APC. Trying to create a formidable opposition to the present ruling party is a magnificent effort, but there are certain Abacha apologists in there who are trying to re-invent themselves, to launder themselves. I find it very difficult to accept those ones as good bedfellows. So, APC should watch those people. Maybe those ones are reformed, but in my view, a leopard doesn’t change its spots.

You will be 80 next year, and there are concerns among those close to you about your long distance travels, are you thinking of cutting down on your long trips?

I have been working on that in the last 30 years. My first date of planned retirement was when I turned 49. But it’s been difficult.  The nature of my profession is the real problem, the workshops, lecturing and so on. It is the transition that is the problem; if I had the proper egbe (teleportation charm) and I can move myself from here to Addis Ababa or America tomorrow, that will be perfect. I won’t mind. I don’t know what is wrong with egbe these days, mo pe e titi (I invoked it repeatedly) it didn’t land me in America.

What should we expect for your 80th buggersbirthday?

Unfortunately, I won’t have what I like —- which is to see nobody; just to disappear. I have managed to maintain that tradition for the past two years.