Guardian

That mane… Many don’t know that when  Akinwande Oluwole Soyinka was born on Friday, July 1934, the moon was in the Zodiac Sign of Leo. Little wonder then that in the presence of this Cancerian, there’s that strong feeling of being close to a benevolent Lion… The 79-year-old “Teacher” and Nobel Laureate, in this encounter with The Guardian team of YEMI OGUNSOLA, KABIR ALABI GARBA, DEBO OLADIMEJI AND AJIBOLA HAMZAT, sounds alarms on burning issues of national interest—-from the worrisome trend in our democracy, errors of governance, masterminds of Boko Haram to legislative looting  and the imperatives of continued unity. And matters of beauty...

HOW would you assess democracy at 14 and President Jonathan’s administration at two?

How would I assess his tenure? I think there is an expression in tennis: “ unforced errors”, when two people are playing,  and when one outplays the other, there are certain strokes called “unforced errors” —-  unnecessary, avoidable. A product of sloppy thinking or over-confidence. I call them “unforced errors”. There are many promises, first of all, unfulfilled. One, of course, is power (electricity). The issue of power, so essential to the generation of the economy; for the maintenance of the existing level of the economy. The problem till now has not been solved. There are many infrastructural examples of that. It’s scandalous, for instance, that the artery to the rest of the nation, the Expressway from Lagos to the interior, is in such decrepit state. It’s a disgrace to any regime, to the former presidents of this nation, whether you talk of Yar’Adua or Obasanjo. It’s humiliating for the entire nation.  Nowhere else in the world can that happen. I repeat, nowhere else in the world, either in this continent or Asia or Europe is such a critical artery, the road to the rest of the nation, left in such a decrepit state without a president either hanging his Minister of Works or committing hara-kiri. This is just one example.

Unforced errors include, for instance, the whole attitude of petroleum supply. The issue of  fuel subsidy etc,etc. There have been many highhanded actions which are totally unexpected from a democratically elected president. I refer, for instance, to the action during the oil subsidy protests when suddenly armed Police and the army were sent to take over a public square which does not even belong to the Federal Government but belongs to a state where people were demonstrating, protesting a glaring deformity in governance… I give those examples as governance by “unforced errors”.

Must Nigerians always suffer in the midst of plenty?

To run the economy of any society or community, there are deliberate minuses and pluses. If you are about to insert a minus into peoples’ lives, you’ve got to compensate some of the moves. Suppose for instance, certain compensations have been by way of the amelioration of the citizens’ lives. In order words, if people have seen that the removal of oil subsidy will be compensated by a number of policies that take the burden of existence from their daily lives, you will find that there will be very little agitation against oil subsidy. In order words, we are not just talking about the increase in the pump price of petroleum.

We are talking about what exactly is being given in return; there was nothing. You cannot just wake up and say that you are increasing the price of petroleum, when up to then, the public did not even see what was being done with the tax they paid. They didn’t see what was being done with the revenue that accumulated from the major commodity that is sustaining the nation. It is just like adding minus upon minus upon minus.

I say this confidently because I know that the president was advised at a time that before you do this.. do that and that and that. This wasn’t done. It was after the public rebellion broke out that we heard that a number of vehicles had been imported to be distributed... So that people like you and me would be quite happy to park our vehicles and take public transportation. This is what we are talking about  —- the compensation of pluses. Let us not go into the issues. For example, we know where the oil subsidy has been going. That it was subsidy with heavy quotation marks. In other words, there was never any real subsidy anywhere.

Tam David West has kept insisting that some people in government deliberately keep our refineries out of service to ensure fuel importation

One hundred percent correct! That is the crookedness that I said. Oil subsidy, in fact, has been a word that should always be used not just with heavy quotation marks, but with triple quotation marks on either side. Because that subsidy. Tam David West was a Minister of Petroleum he knows what he was talking about to start with. But you and I are also basic commonsensical people and we asked ourselves ‘how comes that all these years, our refineries are not working? Is it just incompetence or is it sabotage? This is a question we’ve all been asking. Tam David West just put it for us in knowledgeable terms.

How powerful could those forces be that a sincere president could not tackle them and get things right?

President after president have not been sincere with us. There is no excuse. This is part of what I am saying. Just like the roads, electricity. There is no reason whatsoever why the refineries should not be working. None whatsoever.  I mean, refineries are being built everywhere…petroleum technology is almost as cheap as ipad and ipod technology which reinvent themselves everyday.

Do you think, with this high level of advanced corruption, is democracy working in Nigeria?

All societies are struggling with corruption. What is important is to see a government which is very serious about eradicating corruption. And quite frankly, I don’t think this government has the slightest interest in eradicating corruption. It is evident in so many levels. Fortunately, there are institutions which have been put in place. Like EFCC, I criticize EFCC a lot, but frankly, given the Nigerian situation, I think they are not doing too badly at all.   Unfortunately, as you and I know, certain presidents had to use them politically. Crippled them from functioning effectively by protecting some obvious criminals and directing the attention of this organization towards perceived political enemies. But in spite of all odds, I think we need to be grateful… that EFCC has achieved as much as it has. EFCC doesn’t operate alone. The judiciary is involved. We have seen that judiciary itself requires total fumigation as the new President of the Supreme Court (Mariam Muhktar) recognizes.

What will be your comment on Mariam Muhktar’s performance so far?

I am still watching . I think it is too early to comment. If there is so much rot in any organization, you don’t expect it to be fumigated overnight, but we have seen some steps, pronouncements which have been backed by some forms of action. But again, talk about the judiciary take again the case of Salami. I ask myself: ‘what is it? What is at stake?’ The judicial commission has pronounced on that, the NBA has pronounced on it. It is as if the president himself has an interest in the matter.  He took the first step and has been asked to reverse it, he doesn’t. One wonders what is at stake.

Beyond this, what are the radical measures that you want Jonathan and his governors to take to move Nigeria forward?

Well, let me talk about governors. It seems to me that the immediate responsibility/mission of the governors today is to protect democracy. I see a certain veering towards dictatorship. It’s been commented upon and I agree that there is certain high handedness, some actions are being taken. We are witnessing a repeat of some of the conduct of Olusegun Obasanjo who not only subverted the judiciary but virtually began to indirectly militarise the nation by certain forms of arbitrary actions. It is either we are running a federal constitution or we are not.

The front row in the protection of democracy should be occupied right now by governors since events are going on around us which involve them; which for me do not portend well for democracy. Now on development; the governors should also learn that they are in a position to act far more autonomously than they are doing at the moment. My favourite word is decentralisation. Even if the centre is under-developing the nation, the governors have the responsibility to develop their own areas.  And they can do this by independent action —-  by decentralising the process of development. And some governors have proved themselves capable of that –—  when the Federal Government tried to make Lagos State government buckle under Tinubu. Tinubu demonstrated that you can still generate sufficient wealth from within your own zone, your state. We have seen how Lagos has been transforming itself. We have seen this kind of action also being taken by certain governors in terms of education, health, public transportation where the Federal Government has been dragging its feet. Some governors have been taking unilateral actions. I know governors who have involved the citizens in the private sector in boosting the education standard, the environment. Others have focused on housing, some on health, some on road building;  including taking over Federal roads  saying that ‘we cannot allow this  to continue’. That is why I am talking about decentralisation.  That in spite of the centre, governors can still better their environment.

Frankly speaking, do you think we are practising federalism?

That is exactly what Iam saying: that we are not practicing federalism. And therefore, the governors have the responsibility to push the envelope as far as they can. And to say sometimes to the centre: ‘go to hell. We are now concerned with our own salvation. We see you playing so much politics you have no time even to fulfill your responsibility to the state.’

Some people are saying that Jonathan should not have declared a state of emergency in the North. What is your opinion on this?

Let me go back to an interview which I gave to… (is it The News?) Over the Boko Haram thing which was sadly misunderstood by many people. Many people in the North thought that I was talking about them, no. I was talking about a fraction of them. A fraction, very small. I made it quite clear, but many people are uncomfortable, —- may be they themselves are partially  guilty in some way—- they assume that I was  addressing all of them. Those who started the Boko Haram are a small, minuscule, what I called the ‘hard core’ northeners. I repeat that expression: hard core northerners. Some of them are not even politicians; some of them are civil servants. But they are the ones whose entire philosophy of coexistence is built around the mentality of “domination”. They exist. Why are we pretending and lying to one another that they do not exist? That minority exists.  I am going to give you another analogy.

One of the most violent criminal organizations that infested the United States was called the Yardies; They came from Jamaica. They were actually thugs, criminals armed by political parties ; especially in Kingston. That was how they began.

The Yardies became so powerful. They began dealing in drugs, proliferation of arms. They became real channel between the Caribbean and the United States for the passage of drugs. They were feared. They were violent, vicious. They (United States) had to create a special squad to deal with the Yardies. When the political parties realized that this people that they had armed had now virtually taken over the governance, both sides moved against them. Some of them fled Jamaica, when they found that the place had become too hot for them. Because the political parties realized that they had created monsters, Frankensteins who were eating up, not just the government, but the state.

I am giving you that analogy, to illustrate what has happened in Nigeria. It was these politicians, these “hard core” domination-ruled minds that unleashed these thugs against their opponents in the North to begin with. There was also political infighting in the North as there was in the South and East.

People did not understand what Azazi was saying at that conference in Asaba. I was there, I listened. Because of what he said, I arranged to meet Azazi to discuss the situation in Nigeria. He said it’s this notion, this rotation idea in the PDP which then gave one side or the other at some times  the notion that they had to rule Nigeria. That this was also responsible for the violence we were witnessing in the country.  He wasn’t saying that was the only thing responsible. And so they created these largely from the almajiris —- they sent some of them for training in Somalia, Mauritania, some went to Afghanistan.

When I said that .. people were saying “ah ah ah!” Now with all the interrogation, every child  now knows that  “Yes this was true” and this has been going on for years. Exactly like the Yardies, these people were recruited, in the case of Nigeria on the basis of religious hate; in Jamaica, it was on the basis of drug wealth. They became dons. The almajiri who received extra training, sophisticated weapons etc now turned against…

It’s an identical pattern that we witness in any society.  Now, the almajiris began to say to their former handlers ‘wait a minutes.. you are not quite as holy as you pretend to be’. Because these recruits have been radicalized, they have been taken over by the extreme Islamic clerics. Their own mentality revolves around the jihad, jihad  in the violence sense of the word… That is why they are turning against their own people in the North. They now saw themselves as the warriors of God —- they are not interested in the petty, political infighting for which they were recruited and trained in the first place. The mission of being in control of Nigeria, which was the aim of their recruitment officers , their handlers now became secondary. They now moved to a stage where they now say that the “only vision which we have is total islamisation of society by whatever means”.

The only difference between these two is that in the case in Jamaica, the criminal, wealth-building elements took over, controlling the proportion of Jamaica extortionism, sex trade/sex traffick all of course got fuelled  by the drug trafficking.  In this case, the intoxication is not drugs, but religion. And when you have this mixture of religion and politics, you have got a really toxic society. You cannot reason with that combination. And when violence, of course, is now used to promote that cause, it is only one answer: you have to respond, first of all, by some form of violence, defensive violence. That  is human nature, that is normal  otherwise you and I will not be sitting here, if the state had not responded with defensive violence. So when you know reached the point where you discover that while you thought that you are under siege that what you were experiencing were mere pin pricks; that in fact, this people have been building their own independent force. And you are discovering camps all over the place which had existed for many years under your very nose. What do you expect? Except you take over…What people like me  have been saying for couple of years is that “The nation is at war” and when the nation is at war, what do you do? At least, you must cordone off certain zone and try to neutralize those zones.  The state of emergency has been long in coming. You can quarrel with the state of the emergency: should they have left the governors in power? What happens to the normal revenue accruing to those state? Who controls it? Who gives the order? You can go into details if you like.

Before Azazi died, I met him in London. We spoke for about an hour and a half in which he revealed a lot of things. I was very happy about that meeting because I had some questions to put to him. When I read a few weeks ago that they were now discovering cells in the south, I just laughed. During my lecture at the 100 anniversary of King’s College about two years ago, I warned that there were already Boko Haram cells in the south. I used the expression that ‘we are all here speaking grammar. Until they come swarming over the walls and scatter all of us, before we get serious’. I said that there were cells already in the South. And Azazi confirmed it when we met in London. We spoke for one and a half hours. I don’t want to go into the details.

What are the states of these cells now, are they still intact?

You know that one or two have been broken up. But that doesn’t mean that there are not others. Those cells have been there. Azazi revealed that we are being infiltrated via some of the cattle routes and this has been responsible for some of the clashes between the farmers that we have been witnessing and the ambushing of farmers in Oyo State in Ogbomosho even in Ogun State by Fulani herdsmen. When we met, he was coming from the States. I think it is time for me to say some of these things. I like to keep a lot of these things to myself. I just talk to some people in Government: “Do you people understand what’s going on? Are you sure you are doing your job?” But let me reveal some of these things… Azazi was coming from the United States where he had gone to negotiate for some surveillance helicopters.  Because some of these Boko Haram people were already infiltrating along the cattle routes into the South…The evidence is becoming quite clear open, I don’t consider it a security matter any longer and the people are waking up to the reality. When I go hunting, I move into the bush quite a lot. I see “camps”. I see cattle rearer settlements where they camp from time to time. It is some of those which have been, in many cases, converted to some of these camps. When you hear about camp, camp, it is not that they just go into the bush to carve out some areas. There has always been some existing camps. So when I say this nation is at war, I know what I am talking about.  Along the line, I try to control what I do say. But I try to find ways of penetrating into the ears of those who are responsible that, “you are so damn complacent, it is pathetic; that until the United Nations headquarters is blown up, until Police headquarters are blown up. You don’t know what is going on…”

Some people raise suspicions that Azazi’s death was not really…

I don’t know. I am not a conspiracy theorist. When I sound alarms, I based them on facts. If I hear something tomorrow which makes me suspect his manner of death, I will say so. Right now, I don’t know.

Nigeria will be 100 years next year. Do you think Nigeria’s unity is actually working or is workable? Going by all the calamities that have dogged the nation

The question really for me is whether or not we are learning from experience. I have a feeling that if a calamity occurs, it could degenerate into a total destruction of the personality or community. But if that person or that community can learn from the calamity, then of course, that person or community can grow stronger. That is always possible. From what I am seeing, I will say that those who thought that they were completely invulnerable — that they were untouchable, that they could act with impunity, that different set of laws applies to them than to the rest of society, I believe that they are beginning to understand that this is a very short-lived and self-deceiving kind of mentality. I think so. I think I see signs of a recognition that if we are to remain within one community, we all have to treat one another as equals. We all have to accept the same set of protocols will bind us together. That you cannot say this protocol do not apply to you. That you do not have immunity and you cannot act with impunity to hurt the rest of the nation. I have a feeling that this very simple commonsensical law for harmonious co-existence is beginning to penetrate certain formerly unteachable and unreachable elements in society. So, your question I need to put in abeyance. I want to study further how deeply that education, which is self-inflicted incidentally, has penetrated… So calamity is assailing us on all sides —-MEND is trying to resurrect its own. I notice, by the way, people are talking about 56 or sixty-something policeman who were killed in the North. For me, it is catastrophe. Nobody seems to remember the 12 policemen who were killed in the East not so long ago. These are unacceptable figures for any society. How could you just kill 12 Police officers who were accompanying —- I can’t remember the details—- a corpse to a funeral. To me, this is as reprehensible as the slaughter of those 56 or 86 in the North.  I can not think… it should not be allowed in the society without massive condemnation and a massive backing of a redressive action against such element. There must always be equity in social dealing.

There was a time you championed the registration of a political party. You headed a political party. But suddenly we didn’t hear about that political party again

That political party I started for young people like you who complained that they could not join any of the existing political parties. I said “look, come together. If you cannot join existing political party, why don’t you form your own? I will assist you all the way I can.” Unfortunately, many of them who came to the party did not believe that I was not going to run. When they found that I was damn serious, that I had absolutely no intention to run, they began to fall away. Some came into the party thinking that all the money that I won for the Nobel had become millions and millions and they came thinking that we were there to share out money. I said “you can’t be serious. Me myself, I am still working. I am still teaching… all over the place  to make a living. I don’t have money. I formed the political party because I expect you to go back to basics. You will resurrect bicycles and you will go from house to house. You will stand in the market place” as the former President of Brazil, Luiz Inacio de Lula, was telling me the other day. When he formed this political party, it took him many years before his party won the election. He said he would stand in front of his house handing out leaflets “…my name is so, so, so. I am forming a political party and this is what I want to do.” That is why I keep saying, ‘this is a “zero kobo” party.’ This is what you have to do ..If you want to make an impression on people

Is the party still alive and kicking?

As a movement, yes.

But I am out —– it has been handed over. I did what I had to do and it is now up to them. But from time to time, I remind them “don’t surrender. Don’t accept. Even what INEC says. If I want to form a political party and if my energy and my resources are limited to the inhabitants of Freedom Park, why should I not be allowed to do so? This is my contribution to the society. That is what democracy is all about.  People will say “it is too expensive to maintain so many parties . Then forget that word “democracy”.

But even the model we are trying to copy, the US, they have limited number of parties?

No they don’t. From time to time, other parties come and they are registered. We have had independent candidates. Why shouldn’t we have independent candidates in Nigeria. Why shouldn’t I just wake up and say, “I don’t want to join a political party but I want to serve the people here. Go round and say ‘please vote for me.” Let us have a real robust, exciting  democracy…

When the issue of national conference, whether sovereign or not, is brought up. Some people get jittery. What do you think makes them so uncomfortable with what is so obviously a necessity?

I don’t know why they are so scared. I can understand why those who are in power are scared. They feel that what will emerge will be an undermining of their… the status quo. If some of the elected legislators, for instance, oppose it, you can see where they are coming from. They use such ridiculous arguments like “we were already voted in by people, therefore what are you talking about”. But you are voted in on what basis? Suppose the people now are saying “we don’t want a presidential system”. That means, of course, the people want to erode exactly the basis on which you forced them to elect you. Because people participated and they still participate in these elections because if they don’t—- and that is the only platform on which they can. Otherwise, other people will come in. But they do it grudgingly. I have encouraged people to contest elections. As I said that “if you don’t contest election from the very honourable position —- that the system is intolerable anyway —- you are giving yourself another four-year handicap, then another generation handicap . Then a whole generation handicap and so on. Go in there, but try and undermine it from within as much as you can. Say to people when you get there: ‘we are robbing even those who elected us, we are robbing them blind. Our salaries, our allowances are criminal. So let us, while we are here, do something about it even before the election. Before we undermine the system completely, let us at least take away some of the obnoxious aspects of our existence here. This inordinate looting of  society, of the treasury under the legitimized democratic banner.’

And so, simultaneously, you must work to undermine the system, those who are outside and those who are inside, criticize. Even while you are there. So we know, as the saying goes,  that you are not one of them. It’s going to be a tough thing, but you have to understand why even those who yesterday were saying “nothing except a sovereign national conference”, they get in there and say “Oh! Those who are saying what we were saying yesterday should go and have their heads examined.” That expression has been used by some of the people there right now, who, in fact, were in favour of the national conference. What is wrong with sitting down?  The same  arguments we used before have not been invalidated?

Why do you keep running away from active participation in politics? We need people like you there?

I do not have the temperament to stand it, election. It requires the same kind of temperament..

I’ve heard that many times, I don’t understand what you mean by that?

It is either you have the temperament or not?

Some people are born politicians, some people acquire politics.

We are not asking you to be a politician. We are asking you to be a statesman in politics

To be a statesman in politics, you still have to go into politics first. And then, it is by your conduct, by your position you take, by demonstrating to everyone that despite getting into politics on a partisan platform, you are a politician of the people or something. But you need to get in there first. You have to go on a partisan platform. I say I don’t have the temperament for that.

Do you now know those who killed Bola Ige?

Hmm. Let me just say this, I am pretty convinced, three main persons plotted his death.  The truth will come out. But I hope before I die, I will be able to write those names, so that the day the truth comes out, I want you to open that envelop and see. When I say “I hope”, it means that, I want to be 199 percent certain, but already I am only about 95 percent certain about those who plotted his death.

Why do you think he was killed?

I will use one word. He was a “threat”. Full stop.

The choosing of June 12 by South-west governors as Democracy Day, what do you think?

Absolutely. I applaud those who continue to observe genuine democracy day, May 29 is an Ego Day, it came out of the personal ego of somebody. It is anything, but a Democracy Day. And I want states to even go further and refuse celebrating May 29 as Democracy Day.

Off record, are you still (as you put it in one of your books)‘susceptible to the provocation of beauty’?

Thank Goodness! I am! There is nothing off record here, and our women get more beautiful by the day from what I see…